Chinese Forwarding Photos Of Anti-China Protests In Japan

I received the following email forward from Fauna of chinaSMACK with two notes:

  1. That it has been circulating amongst Chinese internet users, and
  2. Chinese internet posts with similar content and images have been deleted or “harmonized”…

…and the vague suggestion that I’d make something interesting out of it. Let’s take a look:

日本爆发大规模反中游行,要求与中国断交,媒体在封锁消息!!!我们还能忍么!!!!(看到立即就转了)

Large-scale anti-China demonstrations break out in Japan, demand severing diplomatic relations with China, the media is refusing to report this news!!! Can we still put up with this!!!! (Look and immediately forward)

中日断交求之不得啊~~。借用希特勒的原话:与这种国家为伍是我的耻辱。

If only China and Japan could sever diplomatic relations. To use something one said by Hitler: Associating with this kind of country is my shame.

不为跟风 不做粪青 只求认清真相,中国人就转发出去!

Not to follow the trend, not to be fenqing, only to ask [others] to see the truth clearly. If you’re Chinese, then forward this on!

There’s plenty to talk about with the understanding that this email is, as Fauna describes it, getting forwarded around by Chinese people. There’s also some significance that can be interpreted out of Chinese discussion forums actively deleting posts with these images, echoing the accusation that the media is not reporting on it as if to hide some truth from the Chinese people.

I wrestled with the idea of using this for a small social experiment but eventually decided it was too sinister of me so I’m just going to come out and tell you what I know before opening it up for discussion.

First, sure enough, there have been Chinese discussion forum posts with the same text and images that have been deleted. Here’s an example of one that was deleted there from Tiexue, an online community well-known for having a nationalistic slant1, and here’s another example from the arguably more mainstream NetEase forums2. Given that anti-Japanese rhetoric and sentiments are hardly rare on either forums, there must be some reason — perhaps government encouraged — for the moderators and administrators of each forum to take them down. That said, it must be noted that other posts with similar content and images still remain on other Chinese discussion forums like bbs.news.ifeng.com and club.china.com.

Second, at least one post on the popular Tianya discussion forum shares the same title as the email’s subject, except it was dated July 3rd, 2006. The same images have also appeared on various web pages published on various websites at different times throughout at least the past 3-4 years. For example, most of the images can be seen on this broken Chinese portal page. We can be certain these pictures are quite old and don’t show any large-scale demonstrations that have “broken out” in Japan recently3.

That said, what are your guys’ thoughts?


  1. cached copy []
  2. cached copy []
  3. …though like China, there have definitely been plenty of online nationalistic anti-Chinese rhetoric, organized protests, and even some deplorable acts by certain individuals in Japan recently. []



74 Comments

Stay in touch with the conversation, subscribe to the RSS feed for comments on this post.

  • Some HTML can be used to format your comment.
  • Add a picture to your comments with Gravatar.
  • Please be civil. Comments may be moderated.
  1. -+

    {shrug} Let the games begin… figure there is going to be a bunch of yelling and screaming, and not whole lot else. Are the authorities in either country in the mood for a lynching or two?

  2. -+-4

    Here we go again…..

    song of the article

    the East is RED

    五毛党

  3. Rex

    -+

    A couple dozen elderly right-wing Japanese get mad, bitch about foreigners. News at 11.

  4. pug_ster

    -+-4

    It is not a safe place for Chinese Tourists in Japan.

    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-10/01/content_11373358.htm

    I hope that they issue a “black travel alert” for Japan too:p

  5. Some Guy

    -+

    There are plenty of Chinese residents of Japan, people who’ve travelled there, Chinese studying Japanese, academics, internationally minded Chinese liberals etc etc, but they’re all hiding out on boxun or whereever, leaving the rest of China to come up with ever more fantastical imaginations of evil Japan…

    The worst part of this whole islands collision fiasco is that for the past 2 weeks less ppl have been uploading the j tv shows I want to watch…

    • pug_ster

      -+

      True. However, it is not easily to tell a Japanese person from a Chinese person because they are ‘hiding out.’ However a tour bus with Chinese (Kanji) characters on the side is easy for those right wing Japanese Nationalists to distinguish.

      • Some Guy

        -+

        Nobody hides the fact that they are Chinese in Japan. No need to.

        Regarding the Fukuoka bus incident, it turns out that 160 uyoku were staging a protest downtown when the tourist bus drove by, and they went batshit. I think the fact that they were able to muster up 160 guys out of the entire island (a quarter of the whole country) just goes to show how popular they really are.

  6. King Tubby

    -+

    I would go for the larger geopolitical context. The deletions are no surprise, when one also considers the very small and tightly controlled anti-Japan demo videod by Custer recently. Its a truism: uncontrolled nationalism is a dangerous gig, wherever you are in the world.

    Beijing made its point diplomatically, added a bit of reciprocal hostage taking, and has now stepped back, and why not. Why spoil National Day when you have a really positive narrative, blasting a Long March to the moon. A considerable achievement to put it mildly. Great graphics on CCTV I read.

    You’ve got the DPROK succession gig to manage. PLAs recent statements about core interests have tightened the sphincters of all the near neighbours, and bought the US regional military presence back into play, Vietnam being a prime example.

    Exacerbate the PRC-Japan faceoff, and you could see some serious anti-China alliances in the offing.

    Beijing is not stupid and knows when reign in the rhetoric, after giving the neighbours a bit of a reality check.

    The first Long March was a shambolic affair, notable less for its heroic moments and more for lice and widespread dysentery. This new Long March to the moon is a quantum leap forward, and one not to be sneezed at.

  7. Jones

    -+

    They’re just going to have to get use to anger-filled protests against China. There’s going to be more burning Chinese flags in the future, in exotic locales around the world. It’ll get to the point that it just happens just because the locals have shit-else to do. It’s part of growing up.

  8. King Tubby

    -+

    Sankakucomplex. Crikey, a bit of an eye opener.

    Kai. Does your mum know you visit this site….in the interest of research, of course?

    (The future convergence. Rubber wear sex and jingoism.)

    • -+

      Christ, I thought that place got busted for the kiddie porn MONTHS ago – I could not sanitize my computer fast enough after last encounter. As for sites in general, something to ponder kiddies – Moot singing like a Canary:

      http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/fbi/turns-out-4chan-not-lawless-it-seems

      Quote:

      “Nearly overlooked during the recent criminal trial of the Tennessee man who hacked Sarah Palin’s e-mail account was the testimony – as a government witness – of the founder of 4chan.org, the anarchic message board.

      Federal prosecutors put Christopher ‘Moot’ Poole on the stand to identify 4chan records that linked David Kernell to the Palin hack. Poole, 22, had previously turned over to the FBI server logs and other records after being served with a search warrant.”

      • King Tubby

        -+

        Help me here. What is the difference between 2 channel and 4 channel. In a bit of detail and also provide links. I must be missing something. THX in advance.

        • -+-1

          Long story short – 4chan.org is the original home of the Internet’s nastiest trolls, hackers, and other malcontents, and has a long history of taking on any and all customers, from the Church of Scientology to the RIAA. Yet, the guy who runs the website, “Moot”, will sign like a canary if push comes to shove – because he knows he would be a ‘prison bitch’ if he got held for any circumstances.
          “2ch” is the Japanese wannabe version of 4chan – to which sites like Sanaku translate saucy bits into English. Mind you it was articles from places like 2ch that spelled the demise for the “Wai Wai” section of the English version of the Daily Mainchi News in Japan.

          • King Tubby

            -+

            Many Thanks Matthew.
            I think I will stick with my daily online newspaper read, which embraces CMP despite the verbose nature of the scribbling there. Just can’t get used to all the metaphors drawn from the flora and fauna world used by Chinese editorialists. One reason why the PRC will never develop soft power global media outreach. The really annoying use of these metaphors/similes cannot be directly attributed to Cultural Revolution, but are hardwired into the Mandarin linguistic system it seems.

            I am interested in explanations re use of these expressive devices.

            As I’m continually struggling to control my own troll tendencies, I think I’ll give 4chan a miss.

          • xian

            -+

            Got that on backwards there. 2chan is the small imageboard that spawned 4chan, 2ch is a much larger textboard with millions of posters.

          • -+

            Tubby – you have to remember, ambiguity is the happy grey area that let’s authors and editors express themselves without getting in trouble for that expression.

            Xian – Hazy memory says 2ch was 1999 and 4chan 2003, yet… 2ch is still a pale second compared to the hell and havoc that 4chan has created.

          • xian

            -+

            Well, 4chan is full of Americans.

          • -++1

            Xian, you would be surprised what roams the halls of 4chan… but you do observe, word of advice: Make sure you say you love cats.

          • WESTERNER

            -+

            Speedy cat is sure speedy ! ……… and long cat is loooooooong ! XD……….

            ps We love cats and care about both China and Japan.

    • -+

      I share posts from Sankaku Complex all the time on Google Reader/Buzz.

      Here’s another one from them that I just saw: Thousands Protests Against China in Shibuya

      Some excerpts:

      The number of protesters is disputed, although international estimates of 2,000-3,000 seem reasonable. Observers point out that the Japanese media can usually be relied on to completely fabricate numbers and photography to suit its own ends, so accurate figures seem unlikely.

      Almost as notable as the protests themselves is the fact that the domestic Japanese mass media has completely ignored them – all the photographs and reporting come from the international media or the people attending the protests, whilst the only “mainstream” Japanese language reporting yet visible is a single report from the Agence France-Presse.

      The Internet has however provided ample publicity – 2ch and various social media, along with the websites of the protest organisers, have all contributed to raising awareness of the demonstrations.

      The presence of rising sun flags and the involvement of General Tamogami was probably enough to ensure pariah handling by Japan’s servile press.

      The mass media’s conspiracy to suppress reporting on the protests has not gone unnoticed – however, with traditional TV and newspaper increasingly an irrelevance to Japan’s younger generations, it is unlikely to prove an impediment to popularising opposition to Japan’s spineless political establishment.

      Click on over for the photos.

      • -+

        Kai, I appreciate Sanaku’s approach to gathering interesting things around the world (NSFW and otherwise), but I have a hard and fast rule about no kiddie porn (whether it be video, audio, ‘manga’, etc.).

        • King Tubby

          -+

          I wish I had not mentioned that beastly japanese site or 4chan….digressing from the geo-political stuff, of which I was hoping people would have an opinion about.

          Those metaphor/simile language devices I mentioned were not about producing intranet ambiguity, but about a specific and commonplace Mandarin way of usually discussing political type issues.

          Double shrug of exasperation. This is turning into an all over the shop thread.

          (Just had a medical fright, so I suppose I’m venting here to take my mind off things.)

          Russel Edgington ????????

          • -+

            Please tubby – given the length and breath of newspaper editors and book authors trying to ply a trade in autocratic or just plain insane areas around the world, the idea of ambiguity does play its part (P.R. China being no exception).
            As for places like 2/4Chan and Sanaku… love or hate these sites – the younger generations are taking to them more for their source of knowledge to understand their world around them…

          • King Tubby

            -+

            Matthew. Pilgrim. Disappointing non-thoughtful reply. Now I know. You voted for Spiro Agnew.

          • -+

            Okay… you replying to the ambiguity view or the 2ch/4chan view? Seriously, starting to get a bit lost on the thread tracking…

        • King Tubby

          -+

          Glad I won’t be around to see the universalisation of this 2chan etc media trend mentioned below. Sounds like a perfect recipe for HASDD (Historical Attention Span Deficit Disorder).

          Primary source of knowledge! More like a full app digital version of the world according to Daffy Duck.

          Then again, I’m still listening to mono vinyl.

          • -+

            Considering who raised these kids, are you terribly surprised? Cripes…

          • King Tubby

            -+

            Aw Matt. You sound like a paidup member of Concerned Parents for Richard Nixon. Look, and here I ‘fess up to being a spawn of Haigh Ashbury social mores and a fan of Leary, Red Brigade …you provide the box, I will probably tick it.

            This does not mean that I want to inculcate the same bs free-for-all child-centred educational values in young tubby. Quite the reverse….very conservative/traditional. Tree books, punctuation, structured writing skills, footnotes and horror of horrors, a real paper OED at hand.

            Once those skills have been obtained, young people are then free to disrobe the opposite sex, smoke dope and listen to music which I don’t approve of.

          • -+

            Tubby, if there is one thing that I have total contempt of, it’s hippies/yuppies/spoiled rotten brats. Too busy out to either save or destroy the world, not enough time to actually “teach their children well”.

          • King Tubby

            -+

            Matthew. Okay, I over-egged my last comment a bit. My points.

            Recent media trends sound like a recipe for historical amnesia, and that is a very bad thing. Living in an ever-present digital cocoon. No time to reflect or ask questions. Just a plethora of audio visual applications to activate.

            Your C S @ N point. The development of those traditional literacy skills I mentioned are being substituted by digital media, and these traditional competences are extremely important. To be sure, soft left political views among teacher unions and education policy deciders (at least in Oz) are to blame for really crap literacy and social science curriculums and outcomes in recent decades.

            I’d like to think a parent can have it both ways. Young adults should be able to save what/who they choose, and yet do so within a traditional literacy framework.

            BTW, traditional historiography at the moment has never been in better health, it is just that school text book authors have not cottoned onto the fact. (Those who don’t read, write text books.) They are too busy writing laughable empathy for the downtrodden role plays, and ignoring the development of serious factual awareness and analytical skills.

            i hope u c wat I was trying to saye.

          • King Tubby

            -+

            Matt. Same here, but for the moment I’m going to sites which offer stronger fare ie the vitriol being heaped on the Scandanavian whale killers in the last 12 hours. Like to see it as a Divide topic. Hardcore folk on either side of the Divide would feel right at home.

  9. -++1

    I worked in Japan until recently. In all my time there I met only one person who openly expressed an opinion that could be termed “anti-China” (“Japan should cut off relations with China” – that kind of nonsense). On the other side of the equation, I heard far more Chinese-speakers on the street than English-speakers, and even in the US-oriented patenting firm I was working in, there were more Chinese than any other national group.

    Sure, Japan has its crazed nationalists, but the most I ever saw of these were the occasional speaker van (maybe once a month in both Tokyo and Osaka, the Japanese Communist Party were far more vocal), the guys standing around out the abominable Yasukuni shrine, and a weird guy I met in a karaoke whose response to me showing up was to sing WW2 propaganda songs (although the fact that these songs were available on the karaoke machine does say something).

    As a lover of political turmoil and controversy, I found life in China far more interesting, but I am under no illusion as to which country is, put simply, brainwashed to believe a false version of history, and which is one where, if people are not taught a complete history of their country, the majority of people do not learn falsehoods of the kind which give rise to the hatred so prevalent in the post translated above. Such are the fruits of dictatorship.

    • -+

      I guess to clarify I should say that , whilst the person I described as saying that Japan should break of relations with China was the only person I met who made anti-China (as in the nation) statements, I did meet rather more people willing to spout the same racist anti-immigrant nonsense I have heard in many countries, China included.

    • Jones

      -+

      What was he doing singing propaganda songs to someone from a country who was on the winning team? Nationalists are never intelligent people.

    • xian

      -++7

      Same thoughts here. As a teenager I bought into the whole Japan-is-the-devil thing. Japanese are always scheming against China, a knife behind their smiles, buy their products and they’ll make bullets with your money, etc. Then I spent a year and a half in Japan, and they didn’t seem like any of those things. Eccentric in some ways, but not inherently evil. Most favor peace and friendship, and even the rightists only go so far as “Japan needs to be protected”.

      I seldom say this to other Chinese, but I feel like we’ve conjured up an enemy that frankly doesn’t exist.

      • S.K. Cheung

        -++3

        Well said. Trying to characterize the people of an entire nation in some monolithic fashion is rightfully the domain of fringe nationalists alone. And making negative generalizations about people based solely on race is what racists are made of. Just because some Japanese committed atrocities during WW 2 doesn’t mean all Japanese would behave that way…not to mention that the Japanese circa 1940 are not the Japanese of today. To take the worst of today’s Japanese (or 1940′s Japanese) as being representative of all Japanese serves no purpose other than to foment hatred, and says more about the people who would peddle such comparisons than of any Japanese individual.

      • -++1

        “I sel­dom say this to other Chi­nese, but I feel like we’ve con­jured up an enemy that frankly doesn’t exist.”

        A noteworthy comment, a reflection of the degree to which ill-feeling towards Japan is constantly peddled through Chinese media and education. The same nurturing of anti-China sentiment is not true of Japanese society, which is why nationalistic protests are the reserve of a lunatic fringe who represent zero danger to Chinese interests.

        On the other hand, Chinese nationalism does have the potential to force a more belligerent response from Beijing in times of crisis because of the ridiculous way anti-Japanese feelings have become an institution. Such a widespread base of fostered hatred is not always going to be so easily controlled.

        • King Tubby

          -++2

          stuart. Slightly off topic here. Look Stuart, Im a major league hater of the CPC, but there is some pretty challenging stuff going down media wise. (OK, I know its not Woodward and Bernstein), Spend some time going thru China Media Project’s translated editorials. And don’t be so hard line….try and interprete the shades of grey, because therein contains a part of China’s future.

      • lolz

        -+

        “I sel­dom say this to other Chi­nese, but I feel like we’ve con­jured up an enemy that frankly doesn’t exist.”

        You should tell the same to the China-bashers.

        • xian

          -+

          I do, all the time.

          In fact I tell foreigners that China isn’t an enemy far more than I tell Chinese that foreigners aren’t the enemy. This is especially important amongst East Asians, where the gap must be bridged at all costs.

    • zball

      -+

      What would be the reaction from general Jewish people if Hilter were still openely honored in a so called shrine in Berlin? Give me one reason why ordinary Chinese people should not express their feelings toward this disgusting activity. The reason that you only met one person who openly targetted Cis beacause the majoraity of peoples perisehed in the WWII were Chinese not Japnese.

      The link between anti-Japan expression and China current political system without exploring the fact of Japan’s invasion of China in WWII is just superficial.

      • -+

        The Yasukuni shrine is, as I have said, abominable, but with respect to the Yasukuni shrine in particular, what more can the current government do that it has not already done – that is forswear any future visits? In the issue of the textbooks, these were only ever used amongst a small set of schools beyond the control of the central government. In the issue of apologising for WW2, given the apologies that have already been received, the assets handed over (some 26 billion US dollars at 1945 prices), it is hard to see what general apology might satisfy the people who still call for a deeper form of apology.

        As for your question, surely you know that there are German and Austrian neo-nazi groups that openly revere Adolf Hitler, and that, whilst no German president has expressed sympathy with them, he prominent Austrian politician Jorg Haider did. That said, Jewish people in the main do not interpret this as meaning that Germany has not changed since 1945.

        • Jones

          -+

          I’ve seen people adorn Swastikas on hats and shirts in China as if it’s a fashion trend.

        • zball

          -+-2

          You blur the line between individual perspective and government stance. Is there any German chancellar openly pay his/her respect to neo-nazi group?

          It sounds like current Japnese government had done a lot to mend the relationship between China and Japan; by arresting Chinese fishboat Captain? teaming up with U.S. in currency manipulation debate? As for the text book, that exactly explain where are those anti-Japan feelings coming from. 26 billion, is that the price tag for 30 million Chinese people died in WWII? First, I donot think Japnese Government had ever paid any money in the name of war criminal compensation.( I might be wrong and would love to learn more about it. a web link will work. ) Second, my impression is that the Japnese government did offer low interest loan to Chinese government in the last 2 or 3 decades. However,such loan was stopped several years ago because China had became a so called “rich country “.

          Don’t get me wrong. It is my hope that people from both countries can finally drop history burdern and face the future. In this case, I simply point out the root cause of those anti-Japan feelings arise from the atrocities committed by Japan during WWII rather than the conspiracy brewed by the Chinese government.

          As we all know, the hard part of fogiveness does not come from the lip service from the wrong doer but from the acceptance of the victims. As a Chinese, I do not think Japanese do good enough in this regard.

          • xian

            -++10

            Huge rant to clear things up:

            -Yasukuni shrine includes all their war dead over the last 2 centuries, including war criminals. I wouldn’t say it’s dedicated to war criminals, and visiting the place didn’t really mean anything until recent protests (Although there have been lesser protests in the past). Most Japanese didn’t see it as anything significant, and previous visits were not really big news. Saying the shrine is akin to a monument to Hitler may be a bit of a stretch. That being said, it does contain a war museum with some very revisionist history (home of the famous “They forced us into bombing Pearl Harbor” thing), and the shrine certainly attracts the nationalist crowd. Probably better not to visit.

            -War reparations were paid under the San Francisco treaty, which was supposed to total over 1 trillion yen if China and Taiwan were to accept. Not as much as Germany, but not nothing either. The PRC refused reparation money and did not enter negotiation because Mao thought it would “hinder relationships”, so technically China didn’t get anything. When reparation money is brought up today, the Japanese position is that China forfeited our claim to compensation, and thus Japan is no longer responsible for it. I can’t say assets handed over to China is compensation, because those assets belonged to China in the first place. They were just returning them.

            -My understanding is that there are 6 textbooks in use now throughout Japan regarding WW2. Almost all public and private schools use one of the six. But cram schools, which are outside businesses that help students with their schoolwork, can use any textbook they want. The 6 standard books are more or less the same when it comes to WW2. The facts are basically there, but not in terrifying detail. Nanjing is there. Biological warfare is mentioned (but not Unit 731 specifically). Japan is the aggressor. Many suffered under imperial Japan. Total casualties in line with international estimates. There are some differences though: the tone used is flat and as soft as possible (in contrast with Chinese books, which can be sensationalist). There are no pictures (lots of photos and drawings in some Chinese textbooks). And casualties for individual events tend to be lower. For example, they estimate 200,000-250,000 deaths for Nanking massacre, but there is a footnote on the bottom that says Chinese estimates go up to 300,000. If you remember the big protests in 2005, those were about a book published by rightwingers that actually got approval. That book, the New History Textbook, is indeed a shameless whitewash of wartime atrocities. However, it was used in about 20 out of a total 11,000 schools. I don’t think it’s used anywhere now. Textbook revisionism was way more prevalent in the 60s and 70s. But even then none of the really whitewashed books ever made it into the mainstream. That is pretty much the sum of the controversy. I think the view that ‘Japan denies everything’ is very, very exaggerated.

            There are definitely angry nationalists who will deny atrocities outright. But I don’t think they are any more than a small minority. Problem is, Japanese don’t like to talk about WW2. The issues are frequently debated on TV, in the papers etc. But the average person is extremely averse to the topic. Even my Japanese friends there shy away from discussing WW2. This aversion is interpreted by the outside world as “tacit denial” or “stubborn indifference”. I don’t believe this is the case. It seems more like a taboo. They don’t talk about it because it shames them, it’s awkward, it’s hard to say. In fact I’ve noticed this is how Japanese people deal with anything controversial, by distancing themselves and ‘leave it to the politicians’ (they actually say this).

            tl;dr version: Our stereotypes for each other have been blown out of proportion by nationalism, there is no reason why we should continue being enemies. Everyone just needs to take a step back and give things a chance.

          • -+

            “I donot think Jap­nese Gov­ern­ment had ever paid any money in the name of war crim­i­nal com­pen­sa­tion.( I might be wrong and would love to learn more about it. a web link will work. )”

            The San Francisco treaty specifically laid out that Japan was to compensate POWs, and was to negotiate separate treaties with those nations which it occupied during the war setting out what reparations were to be paid.

            Treaties were eventually concluded with Vietnam, Indonesia, Burma, and the Philippines involving the transfer of assets worth a billion US dollars in reparations, with most of that sum going to the Philippines. Of the remaining nations occupied by Japan during the war, India, Sri Lanka, and the People’s Republic of China waived all reparations, and South Korea (recognised as the only legitimate Korean government by Japan) also waived all right to further compensation (but in a secret agreement which only became public in 2006) following the payment of $300 million USD. I could not find any information covering Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia, or Singapore, so presumably no reparations were paid in these cases. Similarly, the treaty of Taipei concluded between Japan and the Republic of China did not cover reparations, so presumably no reparations were paid to Taiwan.

            I wish I could post links for all the pages I went to to get this information, but it’s likely that that would get this comment spammed. However, this page is a good starting point:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Peace_Treaty

            and here’s the text of the treaty:

            http://www.taiwandocuments.org/sanfrancisco01.htm

          • lolz

            -+

            “There are def­i­nitely angry nation­al­ists who will deny atroc­i­ties out­right. But I don’t think they are any more than a small minor­ity. Prob­lem is, Japan­ese don’t like to talk about WW2. The issues are fre­quently debated on TV, in the papers etc. But the aver­age per­son is extremely averse to the topic.”

            Agreed with this completely. However there is a sense that Japan got away from the atrocities committed during WWII rather freely, compared to Germany at least.

            Imaging Germany television shows have nationalists debating whether the holocaust was real or not, or German politicians who openly doubt holocaust. That is unimaginable. In places like England you would go to jail for this. Yet you will find this in Japan today. The same people who are complaining about Chinese nationalists exploiting Nanjing Massacre, are they going to tell Jews to stop rallying behind the holocaust?

        • Jones

          -+

          Ok, I don’t know a whole lot about the Yasukuni Shrine. Did they just round up those guilty of crimes and bury them there? Or is it a shrine for all of Japan’s wartime casualties? Do the people visiting the shrine go with the intention of celebrating the wartime atrocities, or to pay respects to dead relatives killed in service to their country?

          • Jones

            -+

            Er, more like, decide to worship only the war criminals, I should say.

          • -+

            Yasukuni is intended as a shrine to the souls of all the military war dead of all the wars fought by Japan. This specifically includes those military personnel executed or who committed suicide as a result of the post-war war crimes trials. The western equivalent would be a German war memorial listing the names of all of Germany’s wars, including Hermann Goering. It is important to note, though, that Yasukuni is privately owned, it is not state property.

          • WESTERNER

            -+

            Err.. its to do with the religion, a mix of shinto, buddism and confornicism (spelt wrong i think XD). Any way its as much about ansester worship and not messing with the dead as much as paying repect. In many japanese homes you will find a small shrine with a picture of the departed and burning insence. They are paying respect to who they were (the previous generation, their mum or dad) not what they did or thought. They dont want to upset the dead least something comes back.

            PS im a christian…………………………

    • lolz

      -+

      Clearly you don’t watch much Japanese tv shows like Takajin no Sokomade Itte Iinkai. I watch it all the time. Yes this show has lots of right wingers, but it is also one of the most popular political shows on Japanese TV, and it is very anti-China. One show tried to disprove Nanjing Massacre, for example.

      And speaking of Nanjing Massacre, the current governor of Tokyo Shintarō Ishihara once said that “”People say that the Japanese made a holocaust but that is not true. It is a story made up by the Chinese. It has tarnished the image of Japan, but it is a lie”. During his campaign he blamed Chinese immigrants and other gaijins to be the source of all crimes committed in Tokyo. Sure he can be categorized as a “crazed nationalist” but then the fact that he continued to be in power just shows that Japanese voters clearly enjoyed, or at least didn’t mind his “crazed nationalistic” views.

      If you list Chinese being taught a false version of history as an example of dictatorship, then Japanese education’s whitewashing of Nanjing massacre must be one of these “fruits of democracy” which is not so different from “fruits of dictatorship”.

  10. xian

    -+

    The flag burning one is clearly from Taiwan…

    • Bill Rich

      -+

      You mean the one with Taiwan written on all the signs ? And the Chinese people thought that was Japan ? Did they white out “Taiwan” in this photo to harmonize and stabilize ?

  11. -+

    Given the disputed areas of land and sea – and the resources there – I suspect we’re going to see lots more of this (manufactured, encouraged, unpleasant) type of behaviour.
    At some stage people of all nations will awaken to the fact that they have more in common with each other than they do their own leaders…

  12. S.K. Cheung

    -++3

    It does seem a little sketchy when people are using a bunch of undated photos which may be a little less contemporary than they would have us believe. But given recent events, I suppose it’s as good a time as any to dig through the archives and disturb some stuff, for people given to those sorts of pursuits.

    I agree with Jones. China hasn’t really arrived unless and until someone uses her flag for kindling. So I guess she’s well on her way.

    Also agree with UK Visa. Disappointing how people choose to emphasize differences rather than nurturing similarities. But given the nature of human history, that’s nothing new.

  13. michaelqtodd

    -+

    I was there in Tokyo watching the protests against China yesterday. There were around 6-8,000 in the demostration.All of them were chanting and they walked for around an hour. It was very scary

  14. Cleo

    -+

    “We will eat you, After we eat your Children!” – Russell Edgington has spoken.

  15. zball

    -+-3

    To Xian,

    I’ll give you credit for the long rant of Yasukuni shrine and text book. However, no one here and even the Chinese govenment has ever stated that ” Japan denies every­thing” In fact, your post indirectly prove my point that Japan does not do good enough for seeking reparation.

    * evading WWII topic simply beacuse it “shames them”. OK, millions of lives lost, admitting, dicussing and correcting my wrong doing is just hard to swallow and make me feel faceless. So, let’s not talk about it and let those souls fade away.

    * Since CCP had deny the reparation, all the civil requests for war compensation is not legitimate. In fact, I really want pay nothing in the first place.

    *There is a momument in Berlin in memory of Jewish people lost in the concentration cample. And, there is a shrine in Tokyo containing a mesumen for war criminals. And, I didn’t see anyting wrong with it and complain why others continue critizing me for not doing goo enough.

    Being friend to each other is a good thing. However, evading discussion previous wrong doing is not a good start.

    To FOARP

    Thanks for the link. Looks like Japan pay nothing to China in name of war compensation. I knew that CCP deny the reparation. However, to date, Japan still refuses and denys any civil request for war compensation.

    • Jones

      -++3

      “* evading WWII topic simply beacuse it “shames them”. OK, millions of lives lost, admitting, dicussing and correcting my wrong doing is just hard to swallow and make me feel face­less. So, let’s not talk about it and let those souls fade away.”

      Why is it the fault of any Japanese person who did not commit atrocities? Would, for example, a 25 year old Japanese person be responsible for what a Japanese person did in the 1930s/40s? Even if he wasn’t even close to even being conceived? No, he is not. If you want to blame the Japanese directly involved, that’s fine. Blaming someone just by virtue of them having been born in Japan is absolutely ridiculous and counteractive to understanding and progress.

      • zball

        -+-4

        Let make it clear. First, I did not blame any Japnese perosn for the things he/she had not done. I blame the attitute of not facing history and the activites of denying history. I believe that “Those Who Forget History Are Doomed to Repeat It” In this regard, I am not only blaming those who directly committed the crime but also those who try to cover, embellish war atrocities.

        • Jones

          -++4

          In the original quote:
          “OK, millions of lives lost, admitting, dicussing and correcting my wrong doing is just hard to swallow and make me feel faceless.”
          Notice the use of “MY wrong doing”. Who’s wrong-doing? Surely it is not the wrong-doing of the vast majority of Japan today. I know this may be like harping on someone being a little lazy with wording, which is usually quite alright because I do it, too…but this sort of wording, intentional or not, is a huge problem when it comes to ethnic/national/cultural groups casting blame on each other. It’s essentially like someone putting blame on me for slavery because an American in the past had slaves, or blaming you for any murder or injustice carried out by Chinese in history. It’s casting blame where it is definitely not due.

          However, as far as talking about World War II war crimes: If someone does not feel comfortable or is otherwise not interested in a certain topic, it does not mean they are attempting to hide it or cover it up. Not everyone is interested in politics and 70 decade-old war crimes. I’m not really sure what you would expect the average modern Japanese citizen to say anyway?

        • S.K. Cheung

          -++3

          I agree that “learning from history” is a timeless adage. That said, everyone learns differently. And there is a lot of history, which means there is a lot to be learned, so you have to wonder how long one must dwell on each point of history in order to maximally glean its learning value. At some point, it’s probably time to move it off the front burner, until such time that those historical lessons might be apropos as cautionary tales for current or future events (and let’s hope such a time never occurs when it comes to Japanese WW2 atrocities). If the lesson’s been learned, the lesson’s been learned. It would be remiss to forget those lessons, but the incremental value of continued review of the same lesson diminishes over time.

          One also wonders why certain Chinese feel that those lessons are vital and relevant today, more than 60 years hence. Is there cause for suspicion that Japan might be on the road towards repeating her mistakes, and desperately needs a crash course?

          When it comes to WW2, the Jews also suffered a thing or two in Germany. I have no interest in debating who had it worse. My point is simply that Jewish people don’t seem to have an expectation of ongoing German regret and remorse today. So i wonder why the situation might be different here.

      • lolz

        -++1

        “Why is it the fault of any Japan­ese per­son who did not com­mit atroc­i­ties? ”

        Using this logic people should stop bashing China for Tibet. I mean, the average Han living in Tibet only moved there in the last two decades because the area offers good jobs. Yet you get people from all over the world who blame these Hans for “killing Tibretan culture” and want them to get out. Is it the Han Chinese’s fault for wanting a better life in Tibet and raising a family there?

        While we are at it, since Jones you are a American I think we should all stop talking about the slavery as well. Many if not most of the white folks are simply sick of this topic, affirmative action, reparations, and all of that. This happened hundreds of years ago, all of the slave owners are long ded. So why do black folks keep on talking about slavery and think the government should create policies which favors only them because of what white folks did to them hundreds of years ago?

        • King Tubby

          -+

          lolz. When it comes to Tibet, its always the same old tape loop.

          Superficial, empirical and not worth notice.

          • lolz

            -+

            Yes. It’s has been the same arguments going back and forth since the USERNET newsgroup days. I can see the Tibetan sentiments but at the sametime I don’t think the Han Chinese’s views are talked about much if at all.

    • xian

      -++3

      There are certainly a lot more Japan can do to make things right, I’m not disagreeing with that. But I think you unfairly assume the worst attitude from them. This is what I was talking about in the my first post.

      As with relationships between people, progress cannot be made when both sides hate each other. That has to subside first or real apologies won’t be given, or accepted. In my experience I don’t feel they want to sweep the issue under the rug, or refuse to pay out of greed, or aren’t aware of the things wrong with Yasukuni. They want closure just as much as we do.

      Let me illustrate: Germany has no problems apologizing to Russia because they don’t think Russia is going to gloat or give them a hard time, thus they have no pride to lose. Russia has no problems accepting Germany’s apology because they don’t think Germany is scheming against them or mean them any more harm. Problem solved.

      The situation is reversed in Asia, where we are very suspicious of each other. I am simply dispelling stereotypes and trying to show that we don’t need to be suspicious of each other. Neither side is anywhere as ‘dark’ as the other imagines. If we back away from the nationalism for a bit, they will be more willing to do what’s right, and we’ll be more willing to accept them as sincere.

      • zball

        -+-2

        Well, at least we both agree that “there are certainly a lot more Japan can do to make things right.”

        As for how I unfairly assume the worst attiude of them. Well, that is your assumption and I cannot force you to change. Fairly speaking, that statement itself is a an unfair assumption, isn’t it. :)

  16. mikecheck

    -++4

    This nationalist nonsense is as old as Japan, but it sure isn’t common or normal, except maybe around campaign time. Of all the time I’ve spent in Japan speaking Chinese, being with obviously Chinese people, in a variety of situations and places, I’ve never heard a bad thing said. Japan is safer for Chinese people than China is.

    If China had freedom of expression and assembly, how many anti-Japan or anti-Japanese protests, parades and plaquards would there be? Likley too many to count.

  17. King Tubby

    -+

    What a silent Saturday. Has the shock and awe shutdown hit everything since the BBC announcement last night.

  18. King Tubby

    -+

    pug_ster. You really are an obsessive.
    Last year it was the DL and Tibet ad nauseum.

    To quote past PM Paul Keating, you are like a dog continually returning to your own vomit.

    Make it easy for everybody, why not list the public intellectuals, East or West, whom you approve of, so everybody can tread carefully around the rest.

    Basically, I would strip you of your US citizenship, give you 200rmb, a copy of the Karma Sutra and deport you to North Korea.

    That wont happen. So much anger. You will have a heart attack soon enough.

Continuing the Discussion